Children’s Friendships in the Infant School Context
[00:00:00] [music playing] Hello, and welcome to Children’s Friendships Matter. A podcast series about children’s friendships post-COVID 19. In this episode Dr Caron Carter talks to Headteacher Cathy Rowland, about the friendship joys and challenges that emerge for children, educators, teachers, and parents in the infant school context – reflecting on what we might learn from both practice and research.
Here, Caron and Cathy explore the benefits of friendships, how schools currently scaffold friendships, and advice for parents supporting their children’s friendships from afar.
[00:00:57] Welcome Cathy to the Children’s Friendships Matter Podcast. It’s great to have you here.
Cathy Rowland:[00:01:03] It’s lovely to be here.
[00:01:04] I really wanted to talk to you because I’m always looking at the sort of relationship between research and practice, and that might be how research can inform practice or how practice can inform research, and I think friendship is one of those areas where there is a lot that we can sort of learn in terms of research, but also in practice. Sometimes there is that- It can feel like there’s a gap between the two and how we bring those together. So I really appreciate the time for you to be here today and to have that conversation with us.
I think with friendship, things never quite run smooth so I am really looking forward to talking to you really about the sort of day-to-day challenges of friendships and I think that kind of as human beings we always like to be fixers and sometimes there is not always a quick fix with these things.
Could I just start by asking you to introduce yourself and telling us a little bit about your background and your journey in to headship?
Cathy Rowland: [00:02:01] I’m Cathy Rowland and I’m lucky enough to be headteacher of Dobcroft Nursery Infant School. I was actually brought up on the Isle of Man until I was 18 and then I moved across to do a four year B.Ed at Edgehill College, and then I took my first job in Sheffield, and I have to say that was over 38 years ago. So I’ve been in Education, I’ve been in six schools across Sheffield – three of them as a head, and I’ve been at my current school 20 years, and I love it.
[00:02:32] Wow, that’s amazing. Thank you. So this podcast focuses upon children’s friendships and also, I guess, wellbeing – because those kind of go hand-in-hand. What benefits do you feel that children get from having friendships in your school?
Cathy Rowland: [00:02:46] I think that it’s one of the prime things. It’s that ability for human beings to form relationships and to manage that, and it’s our role in the school to help them navigate that. I think sometimes parents think ‘Well friendship, that just happens’, but actually like all areas of development, a helping hand is often necessary and it’s one of the prime roles for us as early educators to make sure that young people are developing the right skillset in order for them to do that.
[00:03:19] I mean as adults, we know that sometimes navigating that isn’t always easy so why do we expect such very young children to be able to do that? And our role within the nursery and infant school is very much to develop and to support the children as they’re learning to get through what actually is quite a tricky thing, and to understand what friendship actually is, and also to have the skills to know that.
[00:03:45] I mean children, when they first start at our school they are still at the naturally egocentric stage and it’s all about them and learning how they relate and that toing and froing of relationships in to a friendship. At first – I mean as a parent yourself, you take them down to the playground and they play alongside another child. They don’t necessarily know they interact. I remember many a time asking my children ‘Who were you playing with, what were they called?’, ‘I don’t know, I didn’t ask’, because it’s not important at first when they’re very young; what’s important is the activity, and gradually as they get older they know that actually knowing about that person and actually ‘I need to find out about you’.
[00:04:21] So Caron, if I wanted to be your friend, if we were friends, then I might actually need to find out what your interests are because it’s not all about me. And young children, it is helping them to look beyond themselves, both supporting them through the play based stuff but also having specific taught elements so that they understand the toing and froing of how that gets up.
[00:04:45] And one of the key things that we also look at as a school is the getting on and falling out, because it is natural for it sometimes not to work, but what’s important is that children understand that this is natural and that actually they’ve gradually develop the skills to sort it out. Obviously initially it’s with heavy scaffolding and support from the staff, but then it’s also thinking how they can do that, because sometimes they get it wrong. And I think that is really important that our educators, both for the children but also for their families at home, that it’s natural to get it wrong and the younger you are the more likely you are because you think it’s all about you and it’s about learning and you make mistakes. But actually, just as if you’re teaching a child about writing a story and they make a mistake and so you help them – it’s the same with friendships. They sometimes get it wrong, and then you question them or you might support them so they’re ‘Ah, so if this happens again I could have done that’, because some children aren’t always aware of their affect on other people and actually what they did might have influenced what somebody else did to them. They are not always aware of that relationship as human beings.
[00:05:53] Oh there’s so much interesting stuff there that you said. Can I just pick up on a couple of points? I really liked when you said about, and this has come up with a parent before when I’ve spoken to them about the idea of when you said in the playground you might play with someone and then you say ‘Who did you play with?’ and you don’t know their name. I think sometimes that happens when children start school. They might be playing with other children and then you say ‘Oh, who have you played with?’ and I remember a parent saying that they felt that their child was being rude because they hadn’t asked what their names were.
Cathy Rowland: [00:06:28] It doesn’t always just come up. We know, as adults, that actually the social convention is we ask, and some children do pick that up, but the vast majority you have to say ‘Actually you need to talk about it, or you need to ask them’. It’s not them being rude, but it just hasn’t occurred to them that that’s an important thing. And sometimes when they might come home and ‘Oh, I didn’t play with anybody’ and they come to school and you ‘Well yes, they were playing alongside’, and the stage of development they were at might have been at playing around as opposed to playing with. All areas of development follow a natural progression and friendship and relationships is one of those as well. Some children pass through that without needing too much support and many others need a little tweak along the way to support them.
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[00:07:22] Yes, so I suppose it’s kind of like we put our adult agenda on really, rather than think where are they at at the moment and if they haven’t asked somebody’s name we might encourage them in the future, we might say ‘Oh, well next time when you’re playing you might ask them what their name is and what have you’, but also not to see that as almost a deficit thing, but just to say that is part of where they are at the moment.
Cathy Rowland: [00:07:42] Yes, and say your child was playing with LEGO, ‘Oh, they must have been interested in that, I wonder what they like?’ and actually is the name the most important thing or actually knowing- As adults we like to know names but actually for young children they want to know about the game and sometimes when it goes wrong because say they’re doing roleplay and they both want to be something, it’s asking what would you like to be, where ….you story, and it’s about them understanding that for things to work correctly we can’t reach each other’s minds. That’s really obvious as adult, but for a child it isn’t. Because, well of course it’s obvious – because I’m really certain. I know what’s in my game, and you’re supposed to just guess. We do explicitly help children to understand that you have to read somebody’s body language as well. You have to understand. It’s not just want you say, it’s the tone in which you say it. As an adult that still is a very useful skill, ‘I’m fine’ in my tone of voice isn’t the same as ‘I’m actually fine’, or am I hiding something in those nuances.
[00:08:49] As you become older you become even more complex and layered, but actually it’s really important that children understand at face value what somebody says may not be how they hide it, and we help children to try and learn to read each other as well as giving the right messages.
[00:09:06] So sometimes, for instance, children might be playing a tig game and one of them doesn’t like it and gets upset but then you say to them ‘Well did you tell the other person you didn’t like it?’, ‘No’. So how did they know? So then it’s about saying give a nice firm sign, a visual sign – or in your tone saying ‘Stop it. I don’t like it’. As I said, some children are very intuitive and they do pick that up, but many others they just don’t and they think that the other person is going to read their mind – which they can’t.
[00:09:34] Yes, it’s so interesting. And also that idea of kind of going through that – you said that work about ‘this is natural’ and I quite like that, because when things go wrong we automatically think, you know like if we’ve not told somebody to stop it, then that person who was playing the tig or whatever they were doing, then they will feel really bad that they’ve not picked up on that or whatever, and I was just thinking there’s that element sometimes where children can feel like they’re at fault. Or because there’s feelings involved, because they don’t want to upset their friend, they can feel like they’re a bad person. But also that recognition of no, this is natural, we are never going to get it right – there are lots and lots of things that we’re trying to navigate but that’s okay and you’re not a bad person.
Cathy Rowland: [00:10:22] No it’s interesting. We do something in school called Philosophy for Children and one of the things that you teach them is actually that it’s okay to disagree with your friend because at first children don’t want to think ‘Oh no, I don’t agree with that but actually you and I could be really good friends, but we don’t agree about everything, and that’s okay’. It’s how you negotiate around that that’s the important thing, not necessarily that we have identical views on everything, because we’re not going to. And children actually need to be taught that because quite often they do struggle with that concept when they’re very young that they think they have to agree with everything that their friends say and no, it’s alright to say actually I don’t want to play that today, that’s fine. Maybe tomorrow’, and that’s okay and how you negotiate that.
[00:11:03] But then also if you’re not playing with your friend then maybe you could help them find somebody who does want to play roleplay today, because you want to go and play skipping or something. It’s how you support them to do that.
[00:11:17] I might come back to talk a little bit more about the provision you’ve had but you’ve mentioned quite a bit there, so I am going to ask you now about the impact of COVID 19. At the moment there’s a general feeling of ‘We all want to leave COVID behind and not think about what’s happened’ but I think we can’t do that really. I think that we have to be mindful of the impact of COVID, particularly for children who might be finding things challenging that they might not otherwise have had if we hadn’t had COVID. And then also I suppose with COVID also, there is some positives to be had still from COVID. So when I interviewed some children they had some real positive stories of COVID and how that had impacted on them, particularly with the relationships with their families and so on. So I just wanted to ask you about that impact and what are the challenges now in these new times for children’s friendships and wellbeing?
Cathy Rowland: [00:12:11] I think that we can’t underestimate. We are all a product of whatever has happened in our lives and it was a major world event. So if a child is now five it means that they were very, very young – they were still a baby, ish, or certainly very young child when COVID was going on. And the things that they would have usually been doing, which might have been going for baby groups, toddler group or a music group or whatever. Those things weren’t on, and not only were they not on, but their families were also not getting support, which is often why when you’re a new parent you’re getting support by going to these groups as well as broadening out, but also when you are very young and you go to these groups you have to learn to share a toy, or get on, or- The noise! If you bring a lot of young children together it’s just made. All of those kinds of thing.
[00:13:00] And while it is several years on now, the reality is that that will have forged those early, early years for the children that are now in the school at which I’m head. For some children they’ve managed to navigate that and get through that, but other children – we are still seeing a slightly higher level of anxiety. Now whether that’s COVID or not, the other thing to say is it didn’t just affect children, it affected the adults that would have been in their household. I mean it was a very stressful time. People died. There was a lot of stress around. People were poorly. It was a traumatic time. People were trying to juggle jobs at home while also having children at home in some cases, or if they were accessing school it was different and there were gaps and all those kinds of things. It was a tricky time, and therefore some of those anxieties are either what the children experience but also their family members still have anxiety and some of the separation anxiety when they first come in.
[00:13:55] So we are still navigating that. It is very hard to say that is exactly COVID. All I can say is that myself and a number of other schools are still seeing a slightly higher level of anxiety amongst the young people that we support and I think that some of that is linked to the COVID times.
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[00:14:21] Did you notice at the time when children were coming back that there were any positives to that experience, or?
Cathy Rowland: [00:14:25] It depends, because children had majorly different experiences. So for some of the young people, I mean we never closed as a school – we were open, open in the holidays, so for some young people they were accessing it the whole time and so their experience would have been very, very different than some young people who were five or six months at home and so I think that there was a definite mismatch between the experiences, whereas collectively when you’re all in the same pattern you have similar experiences. So I think that was very, very different.
[00:14:55] I suppose it might have been different for those people that they were having access in their COVID bubble if they had a couple of siblings and you’re still getting on and playing but if you were an only child or you don’t have those other links you may not have seen another child. I can think of one family who told us that their child hadn’t really played with another child for a year, and that’s significant. So they were used to a lot of adult attention, which is great, and that is a plus because they got a lot from that and they got a really good relationship and I’m not knocking that but it also meant that it’s very different when you’re playing with an adult. To go back to what we were saying – who can read your body language, who knows if you’re playing a game when to let you win and when not to let you win. Whereas a young child won’t necessarily have that skillset.
[00:15:40] So I think as educators it’s being mindful that the knock-on from that time will be with us but our job is to take children as they are now and to run with that.
[00:15:54] And that links back to when I did a podcast with Alison Clark. In her book she talks about talking to a doctor who said when children were going back to school, he said the thing that he would be doing would be prescribing play. If he could prescribe anything it would be to prescribe play with other children and with friends.
Cathy Rowland: [00:16:17] Absolutely, and it is those negotiation skills and it’s the ability to- I work better in a team than I do individually and it’s that nuance and if you went out at a lunchtime and you see them with loose parts and they’re making stuff and ‘Ooh, they’re watching that, I will put something down now and do something’, and it’s that sort of collaborative kind of play which is so important for building up those skills that some young people got but some didn’t. Obviously I am very aware that my particular school, you know, many of the families would have had gardens and other things but I’m aware with colleagues from schools across Sheffield that some of that what happened in COVID would depend on the kind of house that you had and the facilities you were able to access during the quite restrictive COVID times.
[00:17:00] Yes, can I pick up on, you mentioned there the play at lunchtime with loose parts. Could you explain that for the listeners?
Cathy Rowland: [00:17:09] Oh right, so loose parts we use all the time with the young children. I was just thinking because I was out the other day at lunchtime. So it’s where you have a collection, and some of it has been bought, some of it is scrap materials, safe ones, and the children learn to collaborate and put things together and it’s where they’re in a sense in charge of their play and they are able to take it where their imagination takes them, and obviously the role of the adult is to facilitate that, but also to make sure that that keeps them in a safe sort of space, because sometimes – for instance one of the things that they’ve got is crates that you might have milk bottles in. Now the children love to stack those and that’s great, but then you need the adults to say ‘Well that’s really, really high now, but what do you think might happen there?’, because obviously I know it gets to a certain height and it’s likely to fall over. But now actually watching something fall over is a wonderful activity, but it’s about thinking ‘Ooh, perhaps we want to knock it over there where the children aren’t, so we’re not going to hurt anybody’. So it’s not that knocking those things over is wrong, it’s just that you need to be aware that you don’t want a child underneath that when you do that because children don’t always think ahead about what may happen.
[00:18:17] So it’s a range of things. So it’s crates, it’s wood, it’s material, it’s all sorts of things which we buy in some of it and we look to try and source through recycling and those kinds of things, and it’s amazing what the children will create.
[00:18:33] That’s great, and I suppose they can use that in an imaginative way and make the objects be whatever they want.
Cathy Rowland: [00:18:38] The younger they are the more a lot of their learning is play-based but obviously it’s our role as adults to make sure that there is a challenge in there and we can take it to the highest level and quality that it can be.
[00:18:52] Yes, that is really interesting, and I always think that play is so important to friendship. So those opportunities at playtime and lunchtime are quite key aren’t they really when you think that once children go in to Y1 and there is more of a sort of formal approach and more of a focus academically, I guess those times become even more important would you say?
Cathy Rowland: [00:19:18] I think that you have more of that play base activity in foundation, so it is just how things are, but obviously yeah, as you move through the school it does become more focused within the taught lessons although obviously I think so much learning is taking place through the play based activities. It’s about making sure it’s got a step on, but also that you’re checking that children are extending it themselves. For instance with roleplay it’s checking that the children aren’t falling in to gender stereotypes, so therefore you might add material so the children can try out different things. It’s really important that we’re doing that.
[00:19:53] Children can take the play where they want to, but also then also suggesting other ways that you might take the play options.
Cathy Rowland: [00:19:58] Suggesting other ways, and sometimes provocation and putting new stuff in which automatically then might help them to go in a different way. And it’s making sure – so for instance one of our year groups has got a high percentage of boys and all the boys were physical, so it’s making sure that we had even more of a range. It’s important for all children to do physical stuff but it was even more important that there was the room and space to do that, so adjusting the space and the way it was set up slightly to facilitate and to make sure that they could get in to the activities that they wanted to.
[00:20:33] Really useful to hear about how those adaptions are made for different cohorts and what’s needed.
Cathy Rowland: [00:20:39] So, for instance, more of the boys naturally wouldn’t have gone to say pen and paper things in their play base, but putting within the construction area, which more of the boys might have gone to, then you are getting what you want but in a way that you’re going to latch on to their interests as well, but it’s also making sure that they don’t get stuck within those interests and over time they are accessing all of the areas. Because we’re hopefully developing rounded individuals and to do that they need to access all of the different elements.
[00:21:11] Yes, that is really interesting, yes.
Cathy Rowland: [00:21:16] If they’re developing, for instance, their gross motor by hauling some of the little tyres that we’ve got and the other things around actually developing gross motor, when they then come to do the more formalised where they are recording and they’ve got their pencil with them and all the other things, actually they will have the better core and therefore they will be able to write more confidently and with better skill. So all these things interlink and it’s our job as educators to make sure that we’re providing for that.
[00:21:42] And going back to the friendship bit and the social bit, it’s really important though that children can get along because one of the biggest life skills I think, and it’s interesting because a lot of adults go on and they’re working from home and things, but you still need to be able to relate, it’s just that it’s in an online thing, and that in itself is one of the things that we do teach. We talk about online safety but we also talk about the way that you treat people online should be absolutely the same as you’re treating them in person. So respect, and sometimes even some of the adults forget that online, the way that you treat people should be appropriate, the same as it would be if it was in person.
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[00:22:24] I was just going to ask you about what teachers and educators can do to support children’s friendships and wellbeing going forward, but I think that you’re saying a lot of those things now. And I think the online thing is really important isn’t it. The online friendship, because so many children now are sort of gaming on headsets with friends and doing things like that, and I think that there is sort of almost like- And particularly when they get in to the teenage years, they have almost got a group of in-person friends and then a group of online friends, and they might overlap or they might be different.
Cathy Rowlan: Absolutely, but then also fundamentally it’s about that safety number as well as knowing that not everybody is as they seem and do a lot of work on that so that they understand about not giving personal details and that actually people can impersonate people. It’s all those kinds of things but actually it’s never been more important that people have got that, that young people have got those skills because so much of their lives, and certainly one they get in to teenagerhood is online that they need to understand. And they need to understand that just because somebody has got a thousand likes on something, it doesn’t mean to say that they are her actual friends. What is a friend? It’s a really interesting concept, isn’t it. You might have the same interest as somebody but that doesn’t necessarily make you a friend.
[00:23:41] I’m old so I’m still on Facebook, because apparently that’s for older people, but I’ve got some people on there who are very much my friends and who are very much my family, but I’ve got others who are – they are classed as a fiend on Facebook terms, but actually they’re not somebody who if I ever needed to talk about something really personal that I would necessarily ring up. But there are different kinds of friends, different levels of that intimacy of being able to discuss things and those nuances between that it’s really important for children to understand, particularly when you’re navigating the online world that actually you need to be careful about what you’re sending, printing, talking about – because you don’t actually know where that’s going if you’re not in the room with that person.
[00:24:23] Yes, and I think that is really good that schools are doing that now and are sort of guiding and supporting children in those areas. I think at one point there was a bit of, you know, parents just felt like they had to stop children from going online, or don’t let them do things or- And I know that of course there are lots of things where there are age ratings and children shouldn’t go on them before that age, but also we’ve got to also prepare them for the world that they’re going to be in, haven’t we really.
Cathy Rowland: [00:24:50] I think so, and as educators everything changes so quickly and it’s really important that we are almost one step ahead because a lot of these games that we’ve designed for younger people, actually there is an element to them where you can talk to somebody, and that could be somebody – it could also be somebody that you don’t want them to be talking to but you need to understand what those games can do before you let your child on them, and there are often ways you can stop certain elements of that game, you can shut that down and if that’s what you want to do, depending on the age of your child, and not just the age of your child but the maturity. Because that’s the thing. Different children will have, just as we’ve said with learning to read, some children learn quickly and some take a bit longer and it’s the same with their friendship things. And actually, if you know your child is a little bit immature then it might be that you as a parent make the decision to wait a little bit longer before you allow them that. Or you keep them even more supervised and you say ‘Oh, you can do that, but come and do that in the room where I’m at’ and then you can keep a closer eye on them. It is about knowing your child and where they are in maturity, as well as their actual age, and obviously in the number of children who might have special needs as well, it’s knowing what extra support you may or may not need to give to your child.
[00:26:06] I’m really glad that you’ve bought up the sort of age thing because it’s something I grapple with really, because I feel like we’ve definitely got a system where by this age you have to be able to do this, and by this age you should be able to do that. I think just some children, for a variety of reasons, might not be there at that age. I don’t know, to be able to ride a bike at 6 or something like that, and it doesn’t mean that they are not going to be able to ride a bike, it might be that they are able to ride a bike at 7 or 8. I think sometimes we are a bit fixated on they have to do something by a certain age or else they’re never going to succeed in life, you know.
Cathy Rowland: [00:26:42] It’s important that you understand what is the usual development, and also be mindful perhaps if the average child might be there, but if not then you as a parent might need to know that ‘Oh right, this is telling me I might need to do a little bit extra to support my child, how can I do that?’, and that is where any families out there, I would say go and chat to your child’s school and they might have some suggestions.
[00:27:09] And sometimes if, for whatever reason, they have not gelled with certain children in their class what we do in school is we then try and get them to play with different children and develop those friendships if they haven’t always happened. Also it’s important to understand that the friend you are really best friends with at 6 might not be the one that at 16 you’re friends with because actually friendships, some of them stay all the time and some of them come and go and there is not anything wrong with that, that is the nature. I often think friendships have seasons and some last for a long time and some don’t. It doesn’t make them wrong, it just means that that was then and then things have moved along.
[00:27:43] That’s great, yeah. And this is the next question I was going to ask you which you’ve started to answer, which is great, around advice for parents who were often trying to support children from afar. So they hear things at the end of the school day and then they are trying to support your child. I really liked that idea that you said about encouraging them to play with different people and it might be that you tried to play with one child and it doesn’t work, and then you try something else and then that might work.
[00:28:17] So what advice would you give to parents that they’re not in school and they don’t see what goes on, and that can be quite tricky, can’t it, as a parent.
Cathy Rowland: [00:28:25] It can be, and sometimes how they are within a school setting might be as they were at home. Some children are loud and some children are a bit quieter. How they relate to different children, you know, what you see – you might only ever seen some of the other children say at a party and some children don’t cope well with parties and they go really wild or they find it just overwhelming, so you don’t see that rounded view of some of the other children as well when you’re trying to partner up your child and make friends and things.
[00:28:50] So I would always advice to go back to the school and say ‘Look, I’m trying to support my child with friendships, ..and the other children as well?’ and they might say that so and so has got an interest here. If your child has an interest in trains, so and so might have an interest in that, but you might want to try that. But I would also say try it out, because sometimes you invite a child home and actually it doesn’t work, and that is okay and that is actually- it doesn’t make either of the children bad, it just means that sometimes in that environment it doesn’t but those other children come back and you think ‘Oh my goodness, they had a wild time, they had a great time’ and you’ve got to try it in different things.
[00:29:28] And also, when you’re young you’re trying different things. You might try ..you might try a music class, you might try football or sport and you don’t know what you like, and it’s important for children to try a broad range of stuff because they don’t know what their thing is going to be, and just because you like something it doesn’t mean to say your child is going to like it either. They can be very, very different to you.
[00:29:48] For instance you might be madly in to football and your child hates football, but that’s okay, and vice versa. You can’t force a child. You can get him to have a go at stuff but actually you can’t force a child to be other than they are themselves. So it’s important, and that’s the same with the friendship thing – sometimes, as we said about children like what other children like – as they start to get their passions in life sometimes they make friendships. So if they start going to a drama class and that is really their thing, then they might start to make friends within that because they’re sharing something.
[00:30:18] Same as us as adults, we often have friendships with people that like the things that we like, and that is the same for young people as well. So I think I would say to parents to get them to try different stuff, because sometimes children are nervous of trying new stuff, and it’s okay if it doesn’t work out. That’s fine. Find something else, or come back to it at a later stage. But also how you ask your child can sometimes result in what answer you get. So if you say what has gone wrong today then they will tell you, but actually that might have been 1% out of 99 that went really well. It’s not that they’re lying, it’s just their perception of that because actually that 1% might be the thing that is the most important thing to that child that day, but it is only a minor thing. The rest of the day might have gone really well and you might think ‘Oh my goodness, my child had an awful day at school’ and they could have had a wonderful day, but one little thing could have gone wrong. I don’t know, their tooth fell out, it happens. Their friend didn’t want to play with them that day and you think ‘Oh, my child hasn’t got any friends’. Well they might have done, but actually I advise you to go and have a chat with whatever school they’re at and to ask them what do they see. Some children might be really good within the class but they find the playground-
[00:31:27] I remember talking to one of my children and giving them a strategy because she could never find a friend. It was a big busy playground and I said meet so and so there, and giving them a strategy for that – but it’s about hitting that wider perspective that I think is really, really important.
[00:31:40] The other thing I would say, and we do a lot of this in school, is that people are very different and that everyone has something to offer and it’s important that they value that and respect that and that some people will find things easy and some things difficult, and that’s the same thing for friendship. So it’s that some children do get extra support within school for the friendship element and the social element and that’s okay. Just as some children get extra support for their reading or their maths – and that is just part of that, with what you were going to say, it’s that we’re all on a journey but not everyone’s journey is the same and they need to be aware of that and that is equitable. We don’t all need the same support in everything.
[00:32:26] It reminds me of when my son was at school. The teacher that he had when he started school was really good at what I called friendship brokering and I think that she used to almost advertise different children’s interests to the rest of the group and I think that was really helpful then because children then gravitate towards other children who they knew had those similar interests.
Cathy Rowland: [00:32:53] And also how another child has navigated where they went wrong. So we were talking about the roleplay thing and I was dealing with someone last week and both children wanted to do the same thing in this roleplay thing and I said actually why couldn’t you have two of whatever it was? ‘Oh, yes we could couldn’t we’, because if it’s their game then you can make it as you want. And they just said ‘Oh that’s fine’, and off they went. But they hadn’t thought that actually they could both be the same thing because they just had to be a bit flexible with their game, and the reality is that some people find that flexibility difficult, but that’s something for those children who do find it trickier, we support them with. That actually sometimes you just have to move around things.
[00:33:29] And there is some research out there that sort of talks about, you know when you were talking about activities out of school and how that kind of helps cement friendships, that might be friendships in school so that you see some friends in school and out of school, or it might be that you have a set of friends in school and you have some friends outside of school. I was just thinking, and I’m aware that out of school activities are expensive aren’t they sometimes, but I think also often schools do lunchtime clubs or after school clubs and things like that.
Cathy Rowland: [00:34:04] Yeah, we try and do a range of things. We try and make them not as expensive as we can, but obviously all organisations have got overheads but we try and put a range of things on, because they are almost like tasters. You know, if you’re interested in science there’s a science club and if you’re interested in music there’s music, and if you’re interested in yoga there is yoga. But actually often, if you don’t know what that is and you’ve never tried it, you don’t know if you like it.
[00:34:32] We’ve got a forest school club, you know, those kinds of things. And it is important. sometimes they don’t like it and that’s okay, but they’ve had a go at it but they don’t always know that until they’ve had- And also it’s important. We’re a three form entry and so at some stage in their primary setting when they get to the junior school particularly they will be mixed up and that is also okay, because actually you often in life have to make new friends and you might go to university or you certainly might join a job and you’ve got to be able to get on with a range of people and make new friends, whereas at school you’ve got all these ready-made things, but you have got to build up that skill set so then when you’re in the stage of life where you’ve got to go in to new things that actually you can get on with whoever you’re with, be it as a friend or as a colleague.
[00:35:20] And I really like that idea of people who are close friends, and then also those that are like connections rather than really close friends, yeah.
Cathy Rowland: [00:35:25] Exactly, and we have all got different friends that we want to do different stuff and the level of honesty or something that we would discuss with them. And that is alright for children to know that in terms of everyone in their class, you expect them to get along with, but they are not all going to be friends. And also I think sometimes parents worry if they haven’t got a best friend. Well actually lots of children, and obviously I’m at nursery infant stage, don’t have a best friend at this stage. They flit. They’re like butterflies and they flit around and it depends what they’re in to on that day and that is also many, many children that’s how they are. As they get older that deeper understanding of friendship can often mean that deeper level of understanding and knowing that other person comes, but that kind of flitty bit is very, very age appropriate for a nursery infant school where I am.
[00:36:18] And also that sort of recognition that it can evolve, can’t it. I know some adults that say to me, you know, they’ve got friends still from primary school, or they might have some friends from primary school but I also think as well that it’s a little bit like – it depends what stage of life that you’re at and what job you’re in or whatever. it does evolve, doesn’t it, and you don’t always hold on to all of those friendships as you go through life.
Cathy Rowland: [00:36:46] And, as I said to you, friendships can often have a season and it depends. So if you in your life go on and move around a lot of you change jobs, then some of them you will take with you and some you won’t whereas sometimes if you go in to one thing you stay where you’ve always been brought up and it might be a different level of that. It’s just what life brings you, but you still need the same sort of skillset to either develop new friends or also to keep that plate spinning with old friends as well that you have to actually invest time with them.
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[00:37:26] I am just coming to the last question now. So would there be any sort of take home messages, questions or reflections that you would like people to take from our conversation today?
Cathy Rowland: [00:37:37] I think that it’s just don’t underestimate how complex a skill developing and understanding what a friend is. If I asked you as an adult what do you define as a friend, I think that there might have been 20 of us in a room and we would all have a slightly different answer and that’s okay. But there are some commonalities and we need to help young people develop those, but actually that understanding will develop as you said. Not all children will reach that understanding at the same time and it’s our job to facilitate that. And I think sometimes it’s to be kind and understand that some children are not where the average child might be. They will get there but they are just a little bit more behind in that sense and will need a bit more support in order to get along, but we need to be respectful of that and helping all the children to understand that it’s not a sprint, it’s a marathon, and we are here for the long game and we need to be able to get along even if some children are not quite really up to making those deep and meaningful friendships.
[00:38:50] Yes, it’s just making me smile thinking about the sprint or the marathon, because I think I’d much rather do the sprint than the marathon!
Cathy Rowland: [00:38:55] Absolutely, absolutely. But that’s the thing you see, some people would love the marathon. Some like that quick thing that it’s over with as well, but I think that it very much is that schools, most schools do an awful lot to try and support that social element. In the early years it’s one of the prime sort of roles of educators to develop that personal development and we do so much more. I mean I’ve been in education for 38 years and as a school we have never done as much as we are doing now to support the young people. I think that most schools do a really great job, but actually we’re not always as good as we could be sometimes at sharing all of that with parents and things, so if you’re not sure what your school is doing then ask them, and if you are stuck on a thing then ask the school. It’s not a sense of failure, it’s a sense of actually the school will be dealing with hundreds of pupils over time, some of the staff, and actually they might have seen something similar before and they might have a suggestion for you and they want the same as you. They want the best for your child so work with them.
[00:39:59] Oh that’s so interesting. And just to mention a couple of things that you said there, because they were really good points to pick up on: I think that you said about we’re here to facilitate, which I thought was interesting, with friendship. So it is not always about sort of jumping in and intervening. It might be that you’re there, particularly if a child wants support – because sometimes they want to negotiate themselves and they want to sort things out themselves, so I kind of really liked that idea of the adults are there to facilitate that scenario and I think that is really good.
Cathy Rowland: [00:40:28] So one of the things that we’ve got in our school is we’ve got in each of the classrooms a ‘put it right’ area and that is obviously when they’re very young we heavily scaffold that but as they’re going through when they’re 6 and 7 we want them to begin where they can sort things out themselves because actually it is normal that sometimes things will have gone wrong but actually as they get older there will be less adults actually near them and you want them to have built up that skillset that they know how they can sort things out themselves and talk through things, and that is a really important thing. So that is one of the things that as a school we do because we think it’s really important that they learn the bumps along the way and how they navigate that.
[00:41:06] Yeah, supporting as and when it’s needed. So that has been really, really interesting to talk to you Cathy. Thank you so much. I think that there is a lot to take from that for, well for lots of people really. it will be useful for academics, it will be useful for teachers and educators, but it will be also useful for parents who want to support children but are not quite sure how to do it or what to do.
[00:41:29] Like you said before, that idea that in schools now they do the most that they’ve ever done and I think when I was younger that sort of social and emotional, it wasn’t really focused on particularly. It was like you could either do it or you couldn’t. There wasn’t that support for it, so I think that it’s really fantastic that there is this recognition that this is learning and development the same as any other area of learning and development and that there is that focus there, so I think just raising that awareness and supporting children with what is a really, really complex aspect.
[00:42:05] And it just makes you think about a 4 year old coming in to school, doesn’t it, and all the things that they have to navigate and all the things that they have to think about. It’s huge. So no wonder they’re absolutely worn out at the end of the day, or falling asleep.
Cathy Rowland: [00:42:16] Absolutely they are, because they’re having to, as I said, their natural development for a four year old is to be egocentric and to be all about them, and then suddenly having to deal with- And many of the preschool settings will be much smaller, you know, they’re in classes of 30 now, and that is a lot of people to negotiate and realise that you’re part of the collective and it’s not all about you. For young children that can often be one of the trickiest things that they find when they first start school that actually sometimes we have to do stuff because we’re part of a collective group, and it’s for the good of the collective group, not the good of individuals, and that is an interesting thing for them to learn.
[00:42:59] Yeah. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.
Cathy Rowland: [00:43:03] Not at all. Thank you.
[00:43:05] Thanks for listening. For more information on Caron’s research and other podcasts in this series, please visit https://research.shu.ac.uk/friends This podcast was made possible and funded by Sheffield Hallam University. [music playing]
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