In the Research Conversations podcast series, researchers and teachers come together in conversation to collectively explore different aspects of engaging with literacy research. They draw on their diverse priorities, interests and concerns as they reflect on what their encounters with research are and reimagine what they could be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can listen to the episode or read the transcript below to consider<\/a> their different perspectives when it comes to accessing research.<\/p>\n\n\n\n In this episode, researcher Julia Gillen and teacher Daisy discuss how classroom practitioners can access and incorporate a wide range of research in their work. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Limited forms of research make their way into schools and restrict how teachers are expected to engage with these ideas. Additional pressures mean that many teachers are unable to critically engage with research or draw on their own expertise and experience. However, there are different avenues that expand multiple approaches to research. More people, projects and organisations are inviting teacher voices to inform the kind of research that is undertaken and to better understand how this research can reach people in the classroom.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Listen to the episode here<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote><\/figure>\n\n\n\n Julia Gillen (JG):<\/strong> Good morning, Daisy. I\u2019m absolutely delighted to meet you for the first time today.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Daisy (D):<\/strong> Good morning. Likewise.<\/p>\n\n\n\n JG:<\/strong> I thought we should start by introducing ourselves because I know you\u2019ve met other people from the project, I don\u2019t think we\u2019ve met yet. I\u2019m Julia Gillen<\/a>. I\u2019m a co-investigator in the project and I\u2019m from Lancaster University.<\/p>\n\n\n\n D:<\/strong> Lovely. I\u2019m Daisy. I am a primary school teacher. I work in a school in Sheffield. And I\u2019ve been involved in the research literacies project<\/a> as a kind of participant since \u2026 ooh 2022, I think.<\/p>\n\n\n\n JG:<\/strong> That\u2019s wonderful. Yes, it\u2019s a pity that we haven\u2019t met before.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [intro music]<\/p>\n\n\n\n JG:<\/strong> I\u2019ve spent a lot of time in schools, but I\u2019ve never been a primary school teacher myself. I\u2019ve spent time in early years, primary and secondary and I\u2019m just in awe really of what you do \u2013 and how you cope. And it\u2019s kind of amazing that you\u2019re interested in research as well. So we\u2019re just delighted that you\u2019re kind of involved in the project. However, I suppose at the same time, every teacher is inevitably involved in research. Is that true, would you say?<\/p>\n\n\n\n D:<\/strong> Well, what you may or may not be aware of is that there is now a kind of increasing drive to have every teacher involved in research that is named research. It\u2019s become part of the teacher\u2019s standards that teachers will keep up with developments in research. And that\u2019s partly what got me interested in participating in this project in the first place. Because my understanding and my colleagues\u2019 understandings and general understanding in education of what research constitutes is quite a broad church. And it\u2019s been very interesting to work with people for whom research is their daily practice, to see the kind of alignments and also tensions between what we think of as research.<\/p>\n\n\n\n JG:<\/strong> You say that you do kind of recognise a broad church of research. And that\u2019s really interesting because some of our participants are telling us that they\u2019re getting only access to a very narrow range of research.<\/p>\n\n\n\n D:<\/strong> I think that is quite largely the case, in fact. Because of my involvement in this project and because of my own extracurricular interests, I perhaps encounter more research than somebody else in a similar position to me, working in schools. I do also feel that the research that makes its way to schools is very highly scripted and edited; usually by needing to come through the filter of Ofsted or the inspectorate or coming through the filter of the DfE or coming through the filter of some very specific bodies endorsed by the DfE. And I don\u2019t feel that most of my colleagues can actually get into the broader church of research which I think is one of the interesting things that\u2019s come out of this project.<\/p>\n\n\n\n JG:<\/strong> Yes. Thank you very much, that does align a lot with our findings. I was really struck by a beautiful way that you expressed it in your blog post<\/a>. You said, \u201cmost of what makes it into schools feels either like a show, \u2018we did this in our school and look what\u2019s happened\u2019 or a tell, \u2018this is some truth about pedagogy or cognition that I\u2019m going to hand down to you\u2019.\u201d And I really thought that was a wonderful example of what we\u2019re hearing about both the narrowness but also the narrowness in how research is transmitted really or broadcast to people in schools, rather than being kind of dialogic as perhaps the profession might expect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n D:<\/strong> Yeah, absolutely and I think there\u2019s an added aspect to that, which is that whether it be a show like \u201cyou try this in your school, it worked for us\u201d or a tell as in \u201clatest thinking says this\u201d, from the perspective of those receiving it or kind of imbibing it at the school end, there\u2019s also the constant time management pressures. And the kind of searing question, \u201cIs this relevant to me? Will I be able to do anything with this research?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n So I don\u2019t know if, you\u2019re aware, but after my initial involvement with the project at the kind of interview and group stage, I\u2019ve been working with Pari and with Cathy to produce some resources to do with how teachers engage with research. And we \u2013 the group of teachers that I was working with \u2013 came up with a kind of card game <\/a>where it\u2019s sort of striving to provide teachers with a series of critical questions to ask of the research they encounter. Which I actually intend to try out in a staff meeting at my school next week.<\/p>\n\n\n\n But I can already predict that some of the responses will be, \u201cI don\u2019t want to engage with this critically. I don\u2019t have time. I simply need you to tell me what it is that I need to know.\u201d Or \u201cSomebody needs to decide what it is that I need to know so that I can action it in my classroom.\u201d And I don\u2019t know whether that is ever an element that kind of informs the research when it\u2019s conducted. So what is the intention behind research when it\u2019s conducted? Is its intention that it should reach classroom practitioners? What do researchers want<\/em> them to do with it, I suppose is my interest as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n JG:<\/strong> That\u2019s a very good point and a critical question down to the producers of research. But before that, it\u2019s both completely understandable given the kind of recent history of the way in which primary education has been made \u2026 let\u2019s say coherent to use the kind of neutral term \u2013 in a kind of alignment between initial teacher training, Ofsted expectations and all the rest of it, but perhaps less rich than it might be. So then it becomes completely understandable, given all the pressures on teachers to say, \u201cI just want a sort of quick fix.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n And yet it\u2019s also quite sad, isn\u2019t it? For those of us who\u2019ve been round education a long time and kind of recognise the greater desire for professionalism. Because at the very heart of professionalism is making decisions I suppose based on your own expertise, experience and critical thinking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n D:<\/strong> Completely. And I was, just as you were talking then, thinking about often from within the system, on the teaching end, you don\u2019t necessarily see the phases or the fads or the kind of movements in educational thinking. I mean, you do to a degree. There are some things that are in [laughs] and some things that are out. But those are kind of received as practice or tips towards best practice rather than always engaged with in the sense of why has this change happened, what specific research has pushed in this direction? Your research spans back over \u2013 especially your research into kind of the digital interactions between learners and kind of digital \u2026 if digital literacies the best word maybe? And I just wonder how that for you has changed in the process of you being someone generating this research and driving this research. How much has change on the educational side changed what you choose to research or what\u2019s available for you to research?<\/p>\n\n\n\n JG:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s a very good point and it\u2019s a very critical question. I mean I suppose one bright sign is that the Economic Social and Research Council (ESRC) considered this project worthy of funding. So obviously we went to them with our aims, which included investigating a diversity of research that\u2019s out there, investigating how research reaches teachers, how research moves; looking at research from the different places in which it might be encountered indeed. So it was kind of a spark of encouragement that at least the ESRC thought it was funding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n And similarly, my work with young children and digital technologies at home, I\u2019ve been fortunate enough to get funded. So I can see a kind of political desire to \u2026 perhaps a recognition in some quarters \u2013 I\u2019m not kind of claiming that it\u2019s at the heart of policymaking or anything [laughs]. But at least there\u2019s a recognition in some quarters that if, for example, we neglect children\u2019s practices with digital technologies outside school and don\u2019t take account of them at all or even before they come to school, then maybe we\u2019re missing something. So I guess that gives me a bit of hope.<\/p>\n\n\n\n On the other hand, I probably haven\u2019t \u2013 well, I\u2019m sure I haven\u2019t \u2013 gone as far as I should to try to tailor my research so that it directly reaches people who might find it useful. I\u2019ve probably been too weak at doing that. So if I think about the project I did a while ago in a couple of schools in the North East, for example, then I think in the end I was content to let it be a research report and a journal article and then kind of \u201coh let\u2019s turn on to the next thing.\u201d And maybe I should think harder about how, if findings in research are worthwhile, you know I should do more to try to communicate them, I suppose.<\/p>\n\n\n\n D:<\/strong> I\u2019m very interested in your use there of the word weak. \u2019Cause I think in my personal experience, there\u2019s a shared sense in both teaching and in academia \u2013which I have a much more limited experience of \u2013 but there\u2019s often a sort of quite ambitious sense of what you\u2019d like your work to achieve in contrast sometimes to what it is possible to achieve with a certain piece of work or a certain aspect of your teaching practice. Also I feel that in what we\u2019ve just been discussing, there is sometimes a sense as a teacher that you are weak in that your<\/em> interests, the interests of individual teachers, don\u2019t appear to drive kind of what the research councils are funding or what their political agenda is moving towards.<\/p>\n\n\n\n But I don\u2019t know to what degree that is true or not true. You know on a personal note, I don\u2019t have any particular links or networks that enable me to kind of get my specific voice heard in the world of research [laughs]. Is there a mechanism, is there a feedback loop somewhere? You\u2019d like to think that there was where [laughs] somebody was saying, you know, \u201cwhat do teachers need more help with and what do they need less help with?\u201d Or \u201cwhat\u2019s a good area for guidance?\u201d Recently various kind of training and professional development events I\u2019ve been to, it\u2019s a profession where it\u2019s quite easy to kind of rail against what\u2019s annoying you [laughs] in the way that it\u2019s governed and regulated. But I don\u2019t know if there is a kind of yeah a mechanism for mutual information. Perhaps this is it. Perhaps this project is the only mechanism that\u2019s operating out there at the moment. [laughs]<\/p>\n\n\n\n JG:<\/strong> Well, I hope not. I mean, for me, I\u2019d like to see the trade unions have a voice.<\/p>\n\n\n\n D:<\/strong> Hmm!<\/p>\n\n\n\n JG:<\/strong> I also think associations like the United Kingdom Literacy Association (UKLA)<\/a> is kind of very worthwhile. And that is one venue where I feel you know, thank goodness I do get to meet some teachers as well as teacher educators and other researchers and also people interested in things like children\u2019s literature, you know, which can be so overlooked. And that perhaps places like that can also provide a route to being invited, for example, to participate in a funding council panel or as a reviewer and so forth. So I think these professional associations like the National Literacy Trust<\/a> and so forth have some capacity to be mediators.<\/p>\n\n\n\n D:<\/strong> I agree. And for me they indeed have been the main route of mediation. It felt a bit like a sabbatical when we were all on lockdown four years ago. And it was the first time in my teaching career that there was really time \u2013 this was before online school had really taken off \u2013 there was a sense of space in the day. And at that point my involvement with subject associations kind of really started as well as for example the Chartered College<\/a> and yeah, the UKLA. And they have from that point really been my go-to place to start hares of thought. And they\u2019ve also put me in contact with people who are conducting research or who are working in their own subject-related organisations. I found that once I started seeking it out, there\u2019s a big world that you can easily get your foot into.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I suppose my question is, for those people who haven\u2019t sought it out yet, or haven\u2019t got the kind of luxury of time in which to think, \u201chow could I engage with this?\u201d, access to research seems to rely on individual interest on the part of teachers. Or perhaps again, perhaps I\u2019m being slightly unfair because within a school structure, there\u2019s also the hierarchy of a kind of leadership strategy and vision and in some cases that also might lead to specific interactions. I do know of schools where, for example, action research projects are expected of their staff within structures that they create for themselves. But it does still feel slightly arbitrary at the moment in terms of whether or not that might be happening in any given setting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n JG:<\/strong> Yes. It does indeed. And one just has to think, if we take it back to children and the tremendous diversity and range of opportunities and challenges, how much better \u2013 you know, it would be good, wouldn\u2019t it, if the system was<\/em> resourced so that teachers could find the time and the space to engage with more research.<\/p>\n\n\n\n D:<\/strong> So maybe a final thought, Julia. We\u2019ve been talking about research and the kind of hugeness of it and the way that it takes many different forms and also the constant time pressures that teachers face and the way that sometimes research might need to be something that you do for the sake of it. [laughs] So, \u201coh, I need to engage with some research because it\u2019s on my personal development plan.\u201d So just maybe if you have any comments about accessibility not in terms of locating and sharing research but in terms of actually reading, viewing, understanding research. Because there\u2019s this whole spectrum from a Twitter post or a post on X to an academic journal article and some people might be able to locate themselves on that spectrum in terms of what they would find easy to engage with and other people might find the whole thing very overfacing. I wonder if you have any thoughts on the final form of research and the publication and how that looks and how it can reach other people?<\/p>\n\n\n\n JG:<\/strong> Yes, I think that\u2019s a really good question. The advantage of social media can be that it gives you a sort of a signpost to somewhere else you might find interesting. But at the same time, for various reasons, I spend phases when I\u2019m engaging in social media and phases when I absolutely don\u2019t. There are phases when I am perhaps a fan of a particular website and follow it for a while and then I\u2019ll probably leave it. And then a lot of the time, you\u2019re driven by a particular question at the time and so you\u2019re kind of pursuing that. And let\u2019s face it, we use Google and I use Wikipedia as well because I\u2019m conscious of the fact that many people, including myself actually, edit Wikipedia and try to build links to useful places. So that\u2019s another place.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I\u2019d like to sort of perhaps blow the trumpet though for our project PI Cathy Burnett because I think she\u2019s done a great job in writing the scoping report about the diversity of research in primary literacy<\/a>. So she\u2019s really written about the different approaches and orientations. And it is an open access academic paper. But she\u2019s also now written a shorter sort of accessible version<\/a>. And I think that just might, I hope, be helpful to people in giving them some clue about the range of things that\u2019s out there in terms of topic, methods and so forth. And hopefully that will spark some kind of routes for people\u2019s own curiosity-driven research as well as be useful for people who were organising continuing professional developments or initial teacher training or even policymakers interested in that. So I\u2019m really hoping that that will be, along with the resources on this website, might be a lasting contribution that perhaps the project can make. Which is very much down to the energies of yourself and other teachers as well that we\u2019ve been working with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n D:<\/strong> I\u2019d definitely like to join in on blowing the trumpet for Cathy, \u2019cause I think participation in this project has been really interesting and really stimulating for me professionally and personally. And these are the kind of questions and concepts that there isn\u2019t always time to bandy about within my normal work setting and it\u2019s been really enjoyable to have the space to consider them. And I certainly think something like Cathy\u2019s \u2013 I would maybe call it a guide \u2013 is going to be a useful starting point as I try and kind of persuade some of my colleagues that this has been a fruitful line of inquiry. So yeah, thank you very much to the project.<\/p>\n\n\n\n JG:<\/strong> Thank you very much, Daisy. It\u2019s been lovely talking to you today. Thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n D:<\/strong> Thank you, Julia. Lovely to meet you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n JG:<\/strong> Okay, bye.<\/p>\n\n\n\n D:<\/strong> Bye!<\/p>\n\n\n\n [outro music]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" In the Research Conversations podcast series, researchers and teachers come together in conversation to collectively explore different aspects of engaging with literacy research. They draw on their diverse priorities, interests and concerns as they reflect on what their encounters with research are and reimagine what they could be. 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