[00:00:00] [music playing] Hello, and welcome to Children\u2019s Friendships Matter. A podcast series about children\u2019s friendships post-COVID 19. In this episode Dr Caron Carter talks to Headteacher Cathy Rowland, about the friendship joys and challenges that emerge for children, educators, teachers, and parents in the infant school context \u2013 reflecting on what we might learn from both practice and research. <\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Here, Caron and Cathy explore the benefits of friendships, how schools currently scaffold friendships, and advice for parents supporting their children\u2019s friendships from afar.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:00:57] Welcome Cathy to the Children\u2019s Friendships Matter Podcast. It\u2019s great to have you here.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland:[00:01:03] It\u2019s lovely to be here. <\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:01:04] I really wanted to talk to you because I’m always looking at the sort of relationship between research and practice, and that might be how research can inform practice or how practice can inform research, and I think friendship is one of those areas where there is a lot that we can sort of learn in terms of research, but also in practice. Sometimes there is that- It can feel like there\u2019s a gap between the two and how we bring those together. So I really appreciate the time for you to be here today and to have that conversation with us.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n I think with friendship, things never quite run smooth so I am really looking forward to talking to you really about the sort of day-to-day challenges of friendships and I think that kind of as human beings we always like to be fixers and sometimes there is not always a quick fix with these things.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Could I just start by asking you to introduce yourself and telling us a little bit about your background and your journey in to headship?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:02:01] I’m Cathy Rowland and I’m lucky enough to be headteacher of Dobcroft Nursery Infant School. I was actually brought up on the Isle of Man until I was 18 and then I moved across to do a four year B.Ed at Edgehill College, and then I took my first job in Sheffield, and I have to say that was over 38 years ago. So I’ve been in Education, I’ve been in six schools across Sheffield – three of them as a head, and I’ve been at my current school 20 years, and I love it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:02:32] Wow, that\u2019s amazing. Thank you. So this podcast focuses upon children\u2019s friendships and also, I guess, wellbeing \u2013 because those kind of go hand-in-hand. What benefits do you feel that children get from having friendships in your school?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:02:46] I think that it\u2019s one of the prime things. It\u2019s that ability for human beings to form relationships and to manage that, and it\u2019s our role in the school to help them navigate that. I think sometimes parents think \u2018Well friendship, that just happens\u2019, but actually like all areas of development, a helping hand is often necessary and it\u2019s one of the prime roles for us as early educators to make sure that young people are developing the right skillset in order for them to do that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:03:19] I mean as adults, we know that sometimes navigating that isn\u2019t always easy so why do we expect such very young children to be able to do that? And our role within the nursery and infant school is very much to develop and to support the children as they\u2019re learning to get through what actually is quite a tricky thing, and to understand what friendship actually is, and also to have the skills to know that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:03:45] I mean children, when they first start at our school they are still at the naturally egocentric stage and it\u2019s all about them and learning how they relate and that toing and froing of relationships in to a friendship. At first \u2013 I mean as a parent yourself, you take them down to the playground and they play alongside another child. They don\u2019t necessarily know they interact. I remember many a time asking my children \u2018Who were you playing with, what were they called?\u2019, \u2018I don\u2019t know, I didn\u2019t ask\u2019, because it\u2019s not important at first when they\u2019re very young; what\u2019s important is the activity, and gradually as they get older they know that actually knowing about that person and actually \u2018I need to find out about you\u2019.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:04:21] So Caron, if I wanted to be your friend, if we were friends, then I might actually need to find out what your interests are because it\u2019s not all about me. And young children, it is helping them to look beyond themselves, both supporting them through the play based stuff but also having specific taught elements so that they understand the toing and froing of how that gets up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:04:45] And one of the key things that we also look at as a school is the getting on and falling out, because it is natural for it sometimes not to work, but what\u2019s important is that children understand that this is natural and that actually they\u2019ve gradually develop the skills to sort it out. Obviously initially it\u2019s with heavy scaffolding and support from the staff, but then it\u2019s also thinking how they can do that, because sometimes they get it wrong. And I think that is really important that our educators, both for the children but also for their families at home, that it\u2019s natural to get it wrong and the younger you are the more likely you are because you think it\u2019s all about you and it\u2019s about learning and you make mistakes. But actually, just as if you\u2019re teaching a child about writing a story and they make a mistake and so you help them \u2013 it\u2019s the same with friendships. They sometimes get it wrong, and then you question them or you might support them so they\u2019re \u2018Ah, so if this happens again I could have done that\u2019, because some children aren\u2019t always aware of their affect on other people and actually what they did might have influenced what somebody else did to them. They are not always aware of that relationship as human beings.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:05:53] Oh there\u2019s so much interesting stuff there that you said. Can I just pick up on a couple of points? I really liked when you said about, and this has come up with a parent before when I’ve spoken to them about the idea of when you said in the playground you might play with someone and then you say \u2018Who did you play with?\u2019 and you don\u2019t know their name. I think sometimes that happens when children start school. They might be playing with other children and then you say \u2018Oh, who have you played with?\u2019 and I remember a parent saying that they felt that their child was being rude because they hadn\u2019t asked what their names were.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:06:28] It doesn\u2019t always just come up. We know, as adults, that actually the social convention is we ask, and some children do pick that up, but the vast majority you have to say \u2018Actually you need to talk about it, or you need to ask them\u2019. It\u2019s not them being rude, but it just hasn\u2019t occurred to them that that\u2019s an important thing. And sometimes when they might come home and \u2018Oh, I didn\u2019t play with anybody\u2019 and they come to school and you \u2018Well yes, they were playing alongside\u2019, and the stage of development they were at might have been at playing around as opposed to playing with. All areas of development follow a natural progression and friendship and relationships is one of those as well. Some children pass through that without needing too much support and many others need a little tweak along the way to support them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [music playing]<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:07:22] Yes, so I suppose it\u2019s kind of like we put our adult agenda on really, rather than think where are they at at the moment and if they haven\u2019t asked somebody\u2019s name we might encourage them in the future, we might say \u2018Oh, well next time when you\u2019re playing you might ask them what their name is and what have you\u2019, but also not to see that as almost a deficit thing, but just to say that is part of where they are at the moment.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:07:42] Yes, and say your child was playing with LEGO, \u2018Oh, they must have been interested in that, I wonder what they like?\u2019 and actually is the name the most important thing or actually knowing- As adults we like to know names but actually for young children they want to know about the game and sometimes when it goes wrong because say they\u2019re doing roleplay and they both want to be something, it\u2019s asking what would you like to be, where \u2026.you story, and it\u2019s about them understanding that for things to work correctly we can\u2019t reach each other\u2019s minds. That\u2019s really obvious as adult, but for a child it isn\u2019t. Because, well of course it\u2019s obvious \u2013 because I’m really certain. I know what\u2019s in my game, and you\u2019re supposed to just guess. We do explicitly help children to understand that you have to read somebody\u2019s body language as well. You have to understand. It\u2019s not just want you say, it\u2019s the tone in which you say it. As an adult that still is a very useful skill, \u2018I\u2019m fine\u2019 in my tone of voice isn\u2019t the same as \u2018I’m actually fine\u2019, or am I hiding something in those nuances. <\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:08:49] As you become older you become even more complex and layered, but actually it\u2019s really important that children understand at face value what somebody says may not be how they hide it, and we help children to try and learn to read each other as well as giving the right messages.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:09:06] So sometimes, for instance, children might be playing a tig game and one of them doesn\u2019t like it and gets upset but then you say to them \u2018Well did you tell the other person you didn\u2019t like it?\u2019, \u2018No\u2019. So how did they know? So then it\u2019s about saying give a nice firm sign, a visual sign \u2013 or in your tone saying \u2018Stop it. I don\u2019t like it\u2019. As I said, some children are very intuitive and they do pick that up, but many others they just don\u2019t and they think that the other person is going to read their mind \u2013 which they can\u2019t.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:09:34] Yes, it\u2019s so interesting. And also that idea of kind of going through that \u2013 you said that work about \u2018this is natural\u2019 and I quite like that, because when things go wrong we automatically think, you know like if we\u2019ve not told somebody to stop it, then that person who was playing the tig or whatever they were doing, then they will feel really bad that they\u2019ve not picked up on that or whatever, and I was just thinking there\u2019s that element sometimes where children can feel like they\u2019re at fault. Or because there\u2019s feelings involved, because they don\u2019t want to upset their friend, they can feel like they\u2019re a bad person. But also that recognition of no, this is natural, we are never going to get it right \u2013 there are lots and lots of things that we\u2019re trying to navigate but that\u2019s okay and you\u2019re not a bad person.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:10:22] No it\u2019s interesting. We do something in school called Philosophy for Children and one of the things that you teach them is actually that it\u2019s okay to disagree with your friend because at first children don\u2019t want to think \u2018Oh no, I don\u2019t agree with that but actually you and I could be really good friends, but we don\u2019t agree about everything, and that\u2019s okay\u2019. It\u2019s how you negotiate around that that\u2019s the important thing, not necessarily that we have identical views on everything, because we\u2019re not going to. And children actually need to be taught that because quite often they do struggle with that concept when they\u2019re very young that they think they have to agree with everything that their friends say and no, it\u2019s alright to say actually I don\u2019t want to play that today, that\u2019s fine. Maybe tomorrow\u2019, and that\u2019s okay and how you negotiate that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:11:03] But then also if you\u2019re not playing with your friend then maybe you could help them find somebody who does want to play roleplay today, because you want to go and play skipping or something. It\u2019s how you support them to do that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:11:17] I might come back to talk a little bit more about the provision you\u2019ve had but you\u2019ve mentioned quite a bit there, so I am going to ask you now about the impact of COVID 19. At the moment there\u2019s a general feeling of \u2018We all want to leave COVID behind and not think about what\u2019s happened\u2019 but I think we can\u2019t do that really. I think that we have to be mindful of the impact of COVID, particularly for children who might be finding things challenging that they might not otherwise have had if we hadn\u2019t had COVID. And then also I suppose with COVID also, there is some positives to be had still from COVID. So when I interviewed some children they had some real positive stories of COVID and how that had impacted on them, particularly with the relationships with their families and so on. So I just wanted to ask you about that impact and what are the challenges now in these new times for children\u2019s friendships and wellbeing?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:12:11] I think that we can\u2019t underestimate. We are all a product of whatever has happened in our lives and it was a major world event. So if a child is now five it means that they were very, very young \u2013 they were still a baby, ish, or certainly very young child when COVID was going on. And the things that they would have usually been doing, which might have been going for baby groups, toddler group or a music group or whatever. Those things weren\u2019t on, and not only were they not on, but their families were also not getting support, which is often why when you’re a new parent you\u2019re getting support by going to these groups as well as broadening out, but also when you are very young and you go to these groups you have to learn to share a toy, or get on, or- The noise! If you bring a lot of young children together it\u2019s just made. All of those kinds of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:13:00] And while it is several years on now, the reality is that that will have forged those early, early years for the children that are now in the school at which I’m head. For some children they\u2019ve managed to navigate that and get through that, but other children \u2013 we are still seeing a slightly higher level of anxiety. Now whether that\u2019s COVID or not, the other thing to say is it didn\u2019t just affect children, it affected the adults that would have been in their household. I mean it was a very stressful time. People died. There was a lot of stress around. People were poorly. It was a traumatic time. People were trying to juggle jobs at home while also having children at home in some cases, or if they were accessing school it was different and there were gaps and all those kinds of things. It was a tricky time, and therefore some of those anxieties are either what the children experience but also their family members still have anxiety and some of the separation anxiety when they first come in. <\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:13:55] So we are still navigating that. It is very hard to say that is exactly COVID. All I can say is that myself and a number of other schools are still seeing a slightly higher level of anxiety amongst the young people that we support and I think that some of that is linked to the COVID times.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [music playing]<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:14:21] Did you notice at the time when children were coming back that there were any positives to that experience, or?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:14:25] It depends, because children had majorly different experiences. So for some of the young people, I mean we never closed as a school \u2013 we were open, open in the holidays, so for some young people they were accessing it the whole time and so their experience would have been very, very different than some young people who were five or six months at home and so I think that there was a definite mismatch between the experiences, whereas collectively when you\u2019re all in the same pattern you have similar experiences. So I think that was very, very different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:14:55] I suppose it might have been different for those people that they were having access in their COVID bubble if they had a couple of siblings and you’re still getting on and playing but if you were an only child or you don\u2019t have those other links you may not have seen another child. I can think of one family who told us that their child hadn\u2019t really played with another child for a year, and that\u2019s significant. So they were used to a lot of adult attention, which is great, and that is a plus because they got a lot from that and they got a really good relationship and I\u2019m not knocking that but it also meant that it\u2019s very different when you\u2019re playing with an adult. To go back to what we were saying \u2013 who can read your body language, who knows if you\u2019re playing a game when to let you win and when not to let you win. Whereas a young child won\u2019t necessarily have that skillset.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:15:40] So I think as educators it\u2019s being mindful that the knock-on from that time will be with us but our job is to take children as they are now and to run with that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:15:54] And that links back to when I did a podcast with Alison Clark. In her book she talks about talking to a doctor who said when children were going back to school, he said the thing that he would be doing would be prescribing play. If he could prescribe anything it would be to prescribe play with other children and with friends.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:16:17] Absolutely, and it is those negotiation skills and it\u2019s the ability to- I work better in a team than I do individually and it\u2019s that nuance and if you went out at a lunchtime and you see them with loose parts and they\u2019re making stuff and \u2018Ooh, they\u2019re watching that, I will put something down now and do something\u2019, and it\u2019s that sort of collaborative kind of play which is so important for building up those skills that some young people got but some didn\u2019t. Obviously I am very aware that my particular school, you know, many of the families would have had gardens and other things but I’m aware with colleagues from schools across Sheffield that some of that what happened in COVID would depend on the kind of house that you had and the facilities you were able to access during the quite restrictive COVID times.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:17:00] Yes, can I pick up on, you mentioned there the play at lunchtime with loose parts. Could you explain that for the listeners?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:17:09] Oh right, so loose parts we use all the time with the young children. I was just thinking because I was out the other day at lunchtime. So it\u2019s where you have a collection, and some of it has been bought, some of it is scrap materials, safe ones, and the children learn to collaborate and put things together and it\u2019s where they\u2019re in a sense in charge of their play and they are able to take it where their imagination takes them, and obviously the role of the adult is to facilitate that, but also to make sure that that keeps them in a safe sort of space, because sometimes \u2013 for instance one of the things that they\u2019ve got is crates that you might have milk bottles in. Now the children love to stack those and that\u2019s great, but then you need the adults to say \u2018Well that\u2019s really, really high now, but what do you think might happen there?\u2019, because obviously I know it gets to a certain height and it\u2019s likely to fall over. But now actually watching something fall over is a wonderful activity, but it\u2019s about thinking \u2018Ooh, perhaps we want to knock it over there where the children aren\u2019t, so we\u2019re not going to hurt anybody\u2019. So it\u2019s not that knocking those things over is wrong, it\u2019s just that you need to be aware that you don\u2019t want a child underneath that when you do that because children don\u2019t always think ahead about what may happen. <\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:18:17] So it\u2019s a range of things. So it\u2019s crates, it\u2019s wood, it\u2019s material, it\u2019s all sorts of things which we buy in some of it and we look to try and source through recycling and those kinds of things, and it\u2019s amazing what the children will create.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:18:33] That\u2019s great, and I suppose they can use that in an imaginative way and make the objects be whatever they want.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:18:38] The younger they are the more a lot of their learning is play-based but obviously it\u2019s our role as adults to make sure that there is a challenge in there and we can take it to the highest level and quality that it can be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:18:52] Yes, that is really interesting, and I always think that play is so important to friendship. So those opportunities at playtime and lunchtime are quite key aren\u2019t they really when you think that once children go in to Y1 and there is more of a sort of formal approach and more of a focus academically, I guess those times become even more important would you say?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:19:18] I think that you have more of that play base activity in foundation, so it is just how things are, but obviously yeah, as you move through the school it does become more focused within the taught lessons although obviously I think so much learning is taking place through the play based activities. It\u2019s about making sure it\u2019s got a step on, but also that you’re checking that children are extending it themselves. For instance with roleplay it\u2019s checking that the children aren\u2019t falling in to gender stereotypes, so therefore you might add material so the children can try out different things. It\u2019s really important that we\u2019re doing that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:19:53] Children can take the play where they want to, but also then also suggesting other ways that you might take the play options.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:19:58] Suggesting other ways, and sometimes provocation and putting new stuff in which automatically then might help them to go in a different way. And it\u2019s making sure \u2013 so for instance one of our year groups has got a high percentage of boys and all the boys were physical, so it\u2019s making sure that we had even more of a range. It\u2019s important for all children to do physical stuff but it was even more important that there was the room and space to do that, so adjusting the space and the way it was set up slightly to facilitate and to make sure that they could get in to the activities that they wanted to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:20:33] Really useful to hear about how those adaptions are made for different cohorts and what\u2019s needed.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:20:39] So, for instance, more of the boys naturally wouldn\u2019t have gone to say pen and paper things in their play base, but putting within the construction area, which more of the boys might have gone to, then you are getting what you want but in a way that you\u2019re going to latch on to their interests as well, but it\u2019s also making sure that they don\u2019t get stuck within those interests and over time they are accessing all of the areas. Because we\u2019re hopefully developing rounded individuals and to do that they need to access all of the different elements.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:21:11] Yes, that is really interesting, yes.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:21:16] If they\u2019re developing, for instance, their gross motor by hauling some of the little tyres that we\u2019ve got and the other things around actually developing gross motor, when they then come to do the more formalised where they are recording and they\u2019ve got their pencil with them and all the other things, actually they will have the better core and therefore they will be able to write more confidently and with better skill. So all these things interlink and it\u2019s our job as educators to make sure that we\u2019re providing for that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:21:42] And going back to the friendship bit and the social bit, it\u2019s really important though that children can get along because one of the biggest life skills I think, and it\u2019s interesting because a lot of adults go on and they\u2019re working from home and things, but you still need to be able to relate, it\u2019s just that it\u2019s in an online thing, and that in itself is one of the things that we do teach. We talk about online safety but we also talk about the way that you treat people online should be absolutely the same as you’re treating them in person. So respect, and sometimes even some of the adults forget that online, the way that you treat people should be appropriate, the same as it would be if it was in person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [music playing]<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:22:24] I was just going to ask you about what teachers and educators can do to support children\u2019s friendships and wellbeing going forward, but I think that you\u2019re saying a lot of those things now. And I think the online thing is really important isn\u2019t it. The online friendship, because so many children now are sort of gaming on headsets with friends and doing things like that, and I think that there is sort of almost like- And particularly when they get in to the teenage years, they have almost got a group of in-person friends and then a group of online friends, and they might overlap or they might be different.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowlan: Absolutely, but then also fundamentally it\u2019s about that safety number as well as knowing that not everybody is as they seem and do a lot of work on that so that they understand about not giving personal details and that actually people can impersonate people. It\u2019s all those kinds of things but actually it\u2019s never been more important that people have got that, that young people have got those skills because so much of their lives, and certainly one they get in to teenagerhood is online that they need to understand. And they need to understand that just because somebody has got a thousand likes on something, it doesn\u2019t mean to say that they are her actual friends. What is a friend? It\u2019s a really interesting concept, isn\u2019t it. You might have the same interest as somebody but that doesn\u2019t necessarily make you a friend.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:23:41] I’m old so I’m still on Facebook, because apparently that\u2019s for older people, but I’ve got some people on there who are very much my friends and who are very much my family, but I’ve got others who are \u2013 they are classed as a fiend on Facebook terms, but actually they\u2019re not somebody who if I ever needed to talk about something really personal that I would necessarily ring up. But there are different kinds of friends, different levels of that intimacy of being able to discuss things and those nuances between that it\u2019s really important for children to understand, particularly when you\u2019re navigating the online world that actually you need to be careful about what you\u2019re sending, printing, talking about \u2013 because you don\u2019t actually know where that\u2019s going if you’re not in the room with that person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:24:23] Yes, and I think that is really good that schools are doing that now and are sort of guiding and supporting children in those areas. I think at one point there was a bit of, you know, parents just felt like they had to stop children from going online, or don\u2019t let them do things or- And I know that of course there are lots of things where there are age ratings and children shouldn\u2019t go on them before that age, but also we\u2019ve got to also prepare them for the world that they\u2019re going to be in, haven\u2019t we really.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:24:50] I think so, and as educators everything changes so quickly and it\u2019s really important that we are almost one step ahead because a lot of these games that we\u2019ve designed for younger people, actually there is an element to them where you can talk to somebody, and that could be somebody \u2013 it could also be somebody that you don\u2019t want them to be talking to but you need to understand what those games can do before you let your child on them, and there are often ways you can stop certain elements of that game, you can shut that down and if that\u2019s what you want to do, depending on the age of your child, and not just the age of your child but the maturity. Because that\u2019s the thing. Different children will have, just as we\u2019ve said with learning to read, some children learn quickly and some take a bit longer and it\u2019s the same with their friendship things. And actually, if you know your child is a little bit immature then it might be that you as a parent make the decision to wait a little bit longer before you allow them that. Or you keep them even more supervised and you say \u2018Oh, you can do that, but come and do that in the room where I’m at\u2019 and then you can keep a closer eye on them. It is about knowing your child and where they are in maturity, as well as their actual age, and obviously in the number of children who might have special needs as well, it\u2019s knowing what extra support you may or may not need to give to your child.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:26:06] I’m really glad that you\u2019ve bought up the sort of age thing because it\u2019s something I grapple with really, because I feel like we\u2019ve definitely got a system where by this age you have to be able to do this, and by this age you should be able to do that. I think just some children, for a variety of reasons, might not be there at that age. I don\u2019t know, to be able to ride a bike at 6 or something like that, and it doesn\u2019t mean that they are not going to be able to ride a bike, it might be that they are able to ride a bike at 7 or 8. I think sometimes we are a bit fixated on they have to do something by a certain age or else they\u2019re never going to succeed in life, you know.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:26:42] It\u2019s important that you understand what is the usual development, and also be mindful perhaps if the average child might be there, but if not then you as a parent might need to know that \u2018Oh right, this is telling me I might need to do a little bit extra to support my child, how can I do that?\u2019, and that is where any families out there, I would say go and chat to your child\u2019s school and they might have some suggestions.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:27:09] And sometimes if, for whatever reason, they have not gelled with certain children in their class what we do in school is we then try and get them to play with different children and develop those friendships if they haven\u2019t always happened. Also it\u2019s important to understand that the friend you are really best friends with at 6 might not be the one that at 16 you\u2019re friends with because actually friendships, some of them stay all the time and some of them come and go and there is not anything wrong with that, that is the nature. I often think friendships have seasons and some last for a long time and some don\u2019t. It doesn\u2019t make them wrong, it just means that that was then and then things have moved along.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:27:43] That\u2019s great, yeah. And this is the next question I was going to ask you which you\u2019ve started to answer, which is great, around advice for parents who were often trying to support children from afar. So they hear things at the end of the school day and then they are trying to support your child. I really liked that idea that you said about encouraging them to play with different people and it might be that you tried to play with one child and it doesn\u2019t work, and then you try something else and then that might work.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:28:17] So what advice would you give to parents that they\u2019re not in school and they don\u2019t see what goes on, and that can be quite tricky, can\u2019t it, as a parent.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:28:25] It can be, and sometimes how they are within a school setting might be as they were at home. Some children are loud and some children are a bit quieter. How they relate to different children, you know, what you see \u2013 you might only ever seen some of the other children say at a party and some children don\u2019t cope well with parties and they go really wild or they find it just overwhelming, so you don\u2019t see that rounded view of some of the other children as well when you\u2019re trying to partner up your child and make friends and things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:28:50] So I would always advice to go back to the school and say \u2018Look, I’m trying to support my child with friendships, ..and the other children as well?\u2019 and they might say that so and so has got an interest here. If your child has an interest in trains, so and so might have an interest in that, but you might want to try that. But I would also say try it out, because sometimes you invite a child home and actually it doesn\u2019t work, and that is okay and that is actually- it doesn\u2019t make either of the children bad, it just means that sometimes in that environment it doesn\u2019t but those other children come back and you think \u2018Oh my goodness, they had a wild time, they had a great time\u2019 and you\u2019ve got to try it in different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:29:28] And also, when you\u2019re young you’re trying different things. You might try ..you might try a music class, you might try football or sport and you don\u2019t know what you like, and it\u2019s important for children to try a broad range of stuff because they don\u2019t know what their thing is going to be, and just because you like something it doesn\u2019t mean to say your child is going to like it either. They can be very, very different to you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:29:48] For instance you might be madly in to football and your child hates football, but that\u2019s okay, and vice versa. You can\u2019t force a child. You can get him to have a go at stuff but actually you can\u2019t force a child to be other than they are themselves. So it\u2019s important, and that\u2019s the same with the friendship thing \u2013 sometimes, as we said about children like what other children like \u2013 as they start to get their passions in life sometimes they make friendships. So if they start going to a drama class and that is really their thing, then they might start to make friends within that because they\u2019re sharing something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:30:18] Same as us as adults, we often have friendships with people that like the things that we like, and that is the same for young people as well. So I think I would say to parents to get them to try different stuff, because sometimes children are nervous of trying new stuff, and it\u2019s okay if it doesn\u2019t work out. That\u2019s fine. Find something else, or come back to it at a later stage. But also how you ask your child can sometimes result in what answer you get. So if you say what has gone wrong today then they will tell you, but actually that might have been 1% out of 99 that went really well. It\u2019s not that they\u2019re lying, it\u2019s just their perception of that because actually that 1% might be the thing that is the most important thing to that child that day, but it is only a minor thing. The rest of the day might have gone really well and you might think \u2018Oh my goodness, my child had an awful day at school\u2019 and they could have had a wonderful day, but one little thing could have gone wrong. I don\u2019t know, their tooth fell out, it happens. Their friend didn\u2019t want to play with them that day and you think \u2018Oh, my child hasn\u2019t got any friends\u2019. Well they might have done, but actually I advise you to go and have a chat with whatever school they\u2019re at and to ask them what do they see. Some children might be really good within the class but they find the playground-<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:31:27] I remember talking to one of my children and giving them a strategy because she could never find a friend. It was a big busy playground and I said meet so and so there, and giving them a strategy for that \u2013 but it\u2019s about hitting that wider perspective that I think is really, really important.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:31:40] The other thing I would say, and we do a lot of this in school, is that people are very different and that everyone has something to offer and it\u2019s important that they value that and respect that and that some people will find things easy and some things difficult, and that\u2019s the same thing for friendship. So it\u2019s that some children do get extra support within school for the friendship element and the social element and that\u2019s okay. Just as some children get extra support for their reading or their maths \u2013 and that is just part of that, with what you were going to say, it\u2019s that we\u2019re all on a journey but not everyone\u2019s journey is the same and they need to be aware of that and that is equitable. We don\u2019t all need the same support in everything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:32:26] It reminds me of when my son was at school. The teacher that he had when he started school was really good at what I called friendship brokering and I think that she used to almost advertise different children\u2019s interests to the rest of the group and I think that was really helpful then because children then gravitate towards other children who they knew had those similar interests.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:32:53] And also how another child has navigated where they went wrong. So we were talking about the roleplay thing and I was dealing with someone last week and both children wanted to do the same thing in this roleplay thing and I said actually why couldn\u2019t you have two of whatever it was? \u2018Oh, yes we could couldn\u2019t we\u2019, because if it\u2019s their game then you can make it as you want. And they just said \u2018Oh that\u2019s fine\u2019, and off they went. But they hadn\u2019t thought that actually they could both be the same thing because they just had to be a bit flexible with their game, and the reality is that some people find that flexibility difficult, but that\u2019s something for those children who do find it trickier, we support them with. That actually sometimes you just have to move around things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:33:29] And there is some research out there that sort of talks about, you know when you were talking about activities out of school and how that kind of helps cement friendships, that might be friendships in school so that you see some friends in school and out of school, or it might be that you have a set of friends in school and you have some friends outside of school. I was just thinking, and I’m aware that out of school activities are expensive aren\u2019t they sometimes, but I think also often schools do lunchtime clubs or after school clubs and things like that.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:34:04] Yeah, we try and do a range of things. We try and make them not as expensive as we can, but obviously all organisations have got overheads but we try and put a range of things on, because they are almost like tasters. You know, if you’re interested in science there\u2019s a science club and if you’re interested in music there\u2019s music, and if you\u2019re interested in yoga there is yoga. But actually often, if you don\u2019t know what that is and you\u2019ve never tried it, you don\u2019t know if you like it. <\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:34:32] We\u2019ve got a forest school club, you know, those kinds of things. And it is important. sometimes they don\u2019t like it and that\u2019s okay, but they\u2019ve had a go at it but they don\u2019t always know that until they\u2019ve had- And also it\u2019s important. We\u2019re a three form entry and so at some stage in their primary setting when they get to the junior school particularly they will be mixed up and that is also okay, because actually you often in life have to make new friends and you might go to university or you certainly might join a job and you\u2019ve got to be able to get on with a range of people and make new friends, whereas at school you\u2019ve got all these ready-made things, but you have got to build up that skill set so then when you’re in the stage of life where you\u2019ve got to go in to new things that actually you can get on with whoever you’re with, be it as a friend or as a colleague.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:35:20] And I really like that idea of people who are close friends, and then also those that are like connections rather than really close friends, yeah.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:35:25] Exactly, and we have all got different friends that we want to do different stuff and the level of honesty or something that we would discuss with them. And that is alright for children to know that in terms of everyone in their class, you expect them to get along with, but they are not all going to be friends. And also I think sometimes parents worry if they haven\u2019t got a best friend. Well actually lots of children, and obviously I’m at nursery infant stage, don\u2019t have a best friend at this stage. They flit. They\u2019re like butterflies and they flit around and it depends what they\u2019re in to on that day and that is also many, many children that\u2019s how they are. As they get older that deeper understanding of friendship can often mean that deeper level of understanding and knowing that other person comes, but that kind of flitty bit is very, very age appropriate for a nursery infant school where I am.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:36:18] And also that sort of recognition that it can evolve, can\u2019t it. I know some adults that say to me, you know, they\u2019ve got friends still from primary school, or they might have some friends from primary school but I also think as well that it\u2019s a little bit like \u2013 it depends what stage of life that you\u2019re at and what job you\u2019re in or whatever. it does evolve, doesn\u2019t it, and you don\u2019t always hold on to all of those friendships as you go through life.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:36:46] And, as I said to you, friendships can often have a season and it depends. So if you in your life go on and move around a lot of you change jobs, then some of them you will take with you and some you won\u2019t whereas sometimes if you go in to one thing you stay where you\u2019ve always been brought up and it might be a different level of that. It\u2019s just what life brings you, but you still need the same sort of skillset to either develop new friends or also to keep that plate spinning with old friends as well that you have to actually invest time with them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [music playing]<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:37:26] I am just coming to the last question now. So would there be any sort of take home messages, questions or reflections that you would like people to take from our conversation today?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:37:37] I think that it\u2019s just don\u2019t underestimate how complex a skill developing and understanding what a friend is. If I asked you as an adult what do you define as a friend, I think that there might have been 20 of us in a room and we would all have a slightly different answer and that\u2019s okay. But there are some commonalities and we need to help young people develop those, but actually that understanding will develop as you said. Not all children will reach that understanding at the same time and it\u2019s our job to facilitate that. And I think sometimes it\u2019s to be kind and understand that some children are not where the average child might be. They will get there but they are just a little bit more behind in that sense and will need a bit more support in order to get along, but we need to be respectful of that and helping all the children to understand that it\u2019s not a sprint, it\u2019s a marathon, and we are here for the long game and we need to be able to get along even if some children are not quite really up to making those deep and meaningful friendships.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:38:50] Yes, it\u2019s just making me smile thinking about the sprint or the marathon, because I think I\u2019d much rather do the sprint than the marathon!<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:38:55] Absolutely, absolutely. But that\u2019s the thing you see, some people would love the marathon. Some like that quick thing that it\u2019s over with as well, but I think that it very much is that schools, most schools do an awful lot to try and support that social element. In the early years it\u2019s one of the prime sort of roles of educators to develop that personal development and we do so much more. I mean I’ve been in education for 38 years and as a school we have never done as much as we are doing now to support the young people. I think that most schools do a really great job, but actually we\u2019re not always as good as we could be sometimes at sharing all of that with parents and things, so if you’re not sure what your school is doing then ask them, and if you are stuck on a thing then ask the school. It\u2019s not a sense of failure, it\u2019s a sense of actually the school will be dealing with hundreds of pupils over time, some of the staff, and actually they might have seen something similar before and they might have a suggestion for you and they want the same as you. They want the best for your child so work with them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:39:59] Oh that\u2019s so interesting. And just to mention a couple of things that you said there, because they were really good points to pick up on: I think that you said about we\u2019re here to facilitate, which I thought was interesting, with friendship. So it is not always about sort of jumping in and intervening. It might be that you\u2019re there, particularly if a child wants support \u2013 because sometimes they want to negotiate themselves and they want to sort things out themselves, so I kind of really liked that idea of the adults are there to facilitate that scenario and I think that is really good.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:40:28] So one of the things that we\u2019ve got in our school is we\u2019ve got in each of the classrooms a \u2018put it right\u2019 area and that is obviously when they\u2019re very young we heavily scaffold that but as they\u2019re going through when they\u2019re 6 and 7 we want them to begin where they can sort things out themselves because actually it is normal that sometimes things will have gone wrong but actually as they get older there will be less adults actually near them and you want them to have built up that skillset that they know how they can sort things out themselves and talk through things, and that is a really important thing. So that is one of the things that as a school we do because we think it\u2019s really important that they learn the bumps along the way and how they navigate that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:41:06] Yeah, supporting as and when it\u2019s needed. So that has been really, really interesting to talk to you Cathy. Thank you so much. I think that there is a lot to take from that for, well for lots of people really. it will be useful for academics, it will be useful for teachers and educators, but it will be also useful for parents who want to support children but are not quite sure how to do it or what to do. <\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:41:29] Like you said before, that idea that in schools now they do the most that they\u2019ve ever done and I think when I was younger that sort of social and emotional, it wasn\u2019t really focused on particularly. It was like you could either do it or you couldn\u2019t. There wasn\u2019t that support for it, so I think that it\u2019s really fantastic that there is this recognition that this is learning and development the same as any other area of learning and development and that there is that focus there, so I think just raising that awareness and supporting children with what is a really, really complex aspect.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:42:05] And it just makes you think about a 4 year old coming in to school, doesn\u2019t it, and all the things that they have to navigate and all the things that they have to think about. It\u2019s huge. So no wonder they\u2019re absolutely worn out at the end of the day, or falling asleep.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:42:16] Absolutely they are, because they\u2019re having to, as I said, their natural development for a four year old is to be egocentric and to be all about them, and then suddenly having to deal with- And many of the preschool settings will be much smaller, you know, they\u2019re in classes of 30 now, and that is a lot of people to negotiate and realise that you\u2019re part of the collective and it\u2019s not all about you. For young children that can often be one of the trickiest things that they find when they first start school that actually sometimes we have to do stuff because we\u2019re part of a collective group, and it\u2019s for the good of the collective group, not the good of individuals, and that is an interesting thing for them to learn.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:42:59] Yeah. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Cathy Rowland: [00:43:03] Not at all. Thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [00:43:05] Thanks for listening. For more information on Caron\u2019s research and other podcasts in this series, please visit <\/em>https:\/\/research.shu.ac.uk\/friends<\/em><\/a> This podcast was made possible and funded by Sheffield Hallam University. [music playing]<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n [end of recording]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" Children\u2019s Friendships in the Infant School Context [00:00:00] [music playing] Hello, and welcome to Children\u2019s Friendships Matter. A podcast series about children\u2019s friendships post-COVID 19. In this episode Dr Caron Carter talks to Headteacher Cathy Rowland, about the friendship joys and challenges that emerge for children, educators, teachers, and parents in the infant school context … Continue reading Podcast Transcript: Episode 9<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":78,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"wds_primary_category":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[8],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-587","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-transcripts"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/research.shu.ac.uk\/friends\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/587","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/research.shu.ac.uk\/friends\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/research.shu.ac.uk\/friends\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/research.shu.ac.uk\/friends\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/78"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/research.shu.ac.uk\/friends\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=587"}],"version-history":[{"count":4,"href":"https:\/\/research.shu.ac.uk\/friends\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/587\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":597,"href":"https:\/\/research.shu.ac.uk\/friends\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/587\/revisions\/597"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/research.shu.ac.uk\/friends\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=587"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/research.shu.ac.uk\/friends\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=587"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/research.shu.ac.uk\/friends\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=587"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}